Redoing the American educational system.

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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Maj->

I can understand the second loan thing. The Philippine Mortgage system currently has a strict "one loan, one property" because of this too.
erik wrote:Um... good? You shouldn't be able to get a large loan if you do not have a steady source of income. And they should question it and make certain that you're not just making it up.
Oh, I totally agree they should be stringent. It could have prevented that whole mortgage crisis thing.

But since then, my relatives have noticed that there has been a trend where people who should be able to get a loan, can't. Hence my clarification :)
Or people like me who are going to have to sell their house at a 20% loss (not counting the money we put into it with improvements which would make it more like a 30% loss if I gave it 2/3 value per the cost of improvements) just so that we can get rid of it to buy a larger house.
Ow. That sucks. Can't you just keep it? Or do you really have to move to a larger house now?
Last edited by Zinegata on Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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erik
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Post by erik »

Right now we have 2 adults, 2 boys (ages 22 months and 2 months) and 3 cats in a smallish 2 bedroom house. We can stay in the house for a few years but once we get kids #3 and/or #4, it is gonna get very cramped. We'd really like to take advantage of the cheap houses right now to get a much larger abode (our current minimum is 4 beds, 2 baths).

Even if we sold our current home at exactly what we owe on it and took a big loss, it still will make sense to do so since we'll be saving even more money by buying a larger house off of someone else selling at an even bigger loss. Heck, if we sold our house at $75k and bought that other house at $75k we'd basically be evenly trading out for a larger house. We'd rather go higher for an even larger house though since we are on a 15 year mortgage right now and we'd be going to a 30 year and with a lower interest rate, so we could afford a larger debt.
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Post by Zinegata »

Ah, gotcha. Yes, it does make sense to sell now and get a bigger house.
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Post by Doom »

Lots of folks a few years ago, saw it coming and sold, and have been renting, waithing for the prices to drop out.

I know, that sounds like a scary thing to do, but if there's another wave of defaults, prices will drop still more.

For example, consider that house you're watching, with a price dropping 5k a month. Sell your house, rent somewhere for less than $5k a month (should be doable), and you're actually getting ahead of the game, AND you have the equity ready for when you do find the house you want, or that particular house.

Renting is massively overrated unless you're going with tenants having their rent paid by the government. My father rented houses for 20 years, finally got out of it...the risk/reward ratio only works if housing prices are going up, AND you have the spare cash to perform major repairs (or pay a few months rent for when you get that bad tenant), AND you have the time/energy to do most repair/maitenance work yourself. It can be done, but it's not as trivial as it sounds.
Last edited by Doom on Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Jilocasin wrote:In Japan, if you have a degree from an American college, that automatically makes it so you'll be hired ahead of anyone who was only educated in their home country. The Japanese educational system sucks balls. It sucks balls from both a practical and psychological standpoint.
Sashi wrote: As far as I understand it, grades literally don't matter in the Japanese system. Advancement to prestigious schools is dependent entirely on entrance exams (think institution-specific SAT/ACT exams) and being held back a grade or prevented from graduating is basically unheard of. This makes classes cater to the lowest common denominator something fierce and any "serious" student goes to "cram school" (night classes) to learn the actual shit they need to pass entrance exams.

All the strictness of Japanese high school is basically centered on teaching students to "be Japanese". i.e. "conform, you little shits!"
Please elaborate.

I don't know if I got this across in my previous posts, but I was really surprised to find this out. Like you constantly hear stuff about hearing how Japan/India/China's educational system is so much more awesome than the West's.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Juton »

Doom wrote: Renting is massively overrated unless you're going with tenants having their rent paid by the government. My father rented houses for 20 years, finally got out of it...the risk/reward ratio only works if housing prices are going up, AND you have the spare cash to perform major repairs (or pay a few months rent for when you get that bad tenant), AND you have the time/energy to do most repair/maitenance work yourself. It can be done, but it's not as trivial as it sounds.
I've been in this situation, do not rent to people on social assistance/welfare/whatever. Without exception they have been filthy fuck-ups who cost you extra money when they move out because you've got to clean up their mess. Now if that person is on disability, workers comp, government pension then yeah, you can probably rent to those people. Being a landlord takes more work than just cashing cheques, so I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you're pretty handy around the house.
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Post by Sashi »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I don't know if I got this across in my previous posts, but I was really surprised to find this out. Like you constantly hear stuff about hearing how Japan/India/China's educational system is so much more awesome than the West's.
As far as I understand it, it goes like this:

We in the West falsely associate things like China's high economic growth and Japan's bitchslapping the rest of the world in personal electronics with their education system, mostly because of discipline fetishists who think Western students have it "too easy" and should be forced to go to school for 10 hours/day with a half day on Saturday, possibly while being whipped. There's also sampling bias at work, since the only products of the system a lot of Westerners in the 80's/90's got to interact with were the ones exceptional enough to be allowed to represent their country.

But there's basically one thing to remember for Asian school systems: they are entirely centered around teaching to the test. This is because "the test" is almost literally the only determinant of your acceptance to the next level of education. As if every US college gave it's own version of the SAT and accepted the top X scores based on vacancies. Imagine if acing the SAT let you jump to the front of the line at Yale even after you got all F's Freshman/Sophomore year of high school before dropping out to work at a Taco Bell for two years and you have some idea of what's going on.

It apparently stems from the old (600AD) Imperial Examination in China that filled the ranks of the bureaucracy with whoever did well on it, regardless of station or caste (which was probably a revolution at the time) so the idea that giving positions to the top scorers in some gigantic exam infected most of Asia, that being the kind of thing that the dominant culture on a continent does.

In China there's a national exam and it is insane. You can only take it once, and you choose what institutions/programs you're trying for before you take it. The exam varies slightly by district, and people seriously travel just to take the exam in a district that's "easy" for the subject they're focusing on.

In Japan it's less crazy (people can retake the tests) but no less test centric. People who fail the test for the College of their choice seriously often choose to go "ronin" and spend a year working part time (or not at all) and studying to try again. But there are also tests for Jr. High/HS.

But in both systems it's clear: your grades don't matter, it's just which exam you pass that matters. The more exclusive the program the more difficult the exam and the more status you have for passing it.

In Japan, if Junior does poorly and Mom & Dad want him to pass The Big Test, they don't complain to the school (that would be impolite), they just send Junior to Cram School. This means it's really easy to coast along as long as your parents don't care about your grades (which is happening more and more).

In China, Cram School is a formalized part of education. There was a mild cultural revolution in the 90's where school officials were finally convinced that 2nd graders might not need four hours of homework a night. But there's still a lot of sand pounding because people think it will help Junior pass The Big Exam.

There's a bunch of other stuff we Westerners tend to misidentify about Asian cultures. Like how most Salarymans in Japan stay at work for 13 hours/day not because they're working hard, but because they're playing a giant game of chicken with each other to see who's going to dishonor himself by leaving work first.
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Post by Surgo »

Lago wrote:I don't know if I got this across in my previous posts, but I was really surprised to find this out. Like you constantly hear stuff about hearing how Japan/India/China's educational system is so much more awesome than the West's.
To add to this: just about every professor I've ever talked to has nothing but bad to say about those countries' educational systems and what they produce. It's pretty much the same thing Maj posted on the second page.
Last edited by Surgo on Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

China's Imperial Examination system was so pervasive that my real-world surname actually means "Fourth Grade Official", because one of my ancestors apparently passed the test and got a government job.

So yes, Sashi pretty much covered how the East handles education. And how it relies on frightening levels of literal memorization as opposed to teaching kids how to think critically.

To be fair, the system does produce students who are amazing at Quiz Bees. I was a member of Team Philippines for the first Asian High School Math Competition back in the late 90s.

And we were comprehensively massacred by the mainland Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and the Koreans. We did come ahead of the Thais, the Vietnamese, and the Indonesians, but that was largely because 3/4s of the Philippine Team were from Filipino-Chinese schools who had both an English math class and a Chinese math class.*

OTOH, much of the competition revolved around solving problems like this:

4361 x 11 = ?

And we were asked to solve about a hundred of them in 60 minutes. With no calculator and just one sheet of bond paper to use as scratch paper.

Needless to say, such a test has very little practical use in the real world.

* Yes, this is a weird system, and I am a product of this system. While most kids in the Philippines got off school around 3pm, I had to stay an extra 2 hours for 3 Chinese subjects, 1 of which was always math. This gave us a lot of math practice though, and the Chinese math class often included some advanced topics (i.e. we learned algebra in Chinese way before the English text book covered it).
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Well, consider my mind sufficiently blown.

Seriously considering restarting this thread with a new thesis. I hate admitting that I'm wrong and held stupid viewpoints, but as usual I'm going to have to do it. :hatin: Sort of like that Supreme Court thread. Goddammit, stop abusing my ego TGD.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Zinegata »

The wise man can't be insulted. For the truth does not insult and untruths are not worth considering :P

Or something like that :D.
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Post by mean_liar »

Zinegata wrote:OTOH, much of the competition revolved around solving problems like this:

4361 x 11 = ?

And we were asked to solve about a hundred of them in 60 minutes. With no calculator and just one sheet of bond paper to use as scratch paper.
You got paper? You don't need paper to multiply by 11. :p

http://www.uiltexas.org/academics/number-sense

I used to do UIL competitions all through middle school and high school. Good times.
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Post by ubernoob »

mean_liar wrote:
Zinegata wrote:OTOH, much of the competition revolved around solving problems like this:

4361 x 11 = ?

And we were asked to solve about a hundred of them in 60 minutes. With no calculator and just one sheet of bond paper to use as scratch paper.
You got paper? You don't need paper to multiply by 11. :p

http://www.uiltexas.org/academics/number-sense

I used to do UIL competitions all through middle school and high school. Good times.
Multiplication by 11 shouldn't even be on a test like that.
ABCD*11 can be rewritten like this:

ABCD0
+ABCD

You literally just shift the line and add single digit numbers. Shouldn't even need paper except to write down the answer.
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Post by cthulhu »

To be honest though, there is plenty wrong with the US education system to be abused.

Start with the extortionate fees being charged at universities, and move onto the extremely puzzling primary and secondary education model.
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Post by Zinegata »

mean_liar wrote:You got paper? You don't need paper to multiply by 11. :p
Oh, I know. I was wondering when someone would point out the smarter way of doing it so I can tell the other part of the story. :)

You see, the test was basically a series of math problems that would be difficult to solve unless you know the smarter way of solving them. So it was actually a memory test where you tried to remember all of the special formulas.

In fact, about 3 weeks before the test we got some of the Hong Kong advanced math text books, which contained all of the formulas. And we could translate those books because our trainers were mostly Filipino-Chinese.

It turned out that some of the math problems in the test were exact (or almost exact) copies of the exercises in the books.

So, in the end, we didn't do as well as the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans, because we only had 3 weeks to cram (and because when we got to Hong Kong, the team finally went "Fuck it! No more cramming! Let's go to Ocean Park!"). But we also did a whole lot better than the other countries because they never even got a hold of the textbooks and didn't realize it was actually a memory test an not a math test :P.

The local team has since learned from these experiences though. From what I heard, we actually won the gold medal from last year's competition, though those kids had way more than 3 weeks to prepare :P
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Manxome »

30 seconds per problem doesn't sound grossly unreasonable even for generic 4-digit by 2-digit multiplication, particularly if you've specifically been practicing them. One prof at my college makes a show of squaring four-digit numbers in his head, and it takes him much less time than that; that's a specialized skill, certainly, but if that's what the competition is about...

Though the fact that you can use scratch paper, but only one sheet, really should be a tip off that they're doing something wonky. If they disallowed scratch paper entirely, that's one thing, but to permit only a strictly limited quantity suggests they're measuring something other than general mathematical ability.

I suppose the tricks may help with accuracy as well as speed. For a research project in high school, I gave students in an advanced math class (Calculus) a test for arithmetic speed and accuracy (at a particular specialized operation - addition mod 37) and was somewhat surprised that the average accuracy was only around 95%, even with instructions to extremely prioritize accuracy over speed ("better to solve 10 problems correctly than solve 20 with one mistake"). I guess you really do auto-fail on a natural 1.

To be fair, that's a weird operation that the testers hadn't practiced.
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Post by Zinegata »

Manxome wrote:30 seconds per problem doesn't sound grossly unreasonable even for generic 4-digit by 2-digit multiplication, particularly if you've specifically been practicing them. One prof at my college makes a show of squaring four-digit numbers in his head, and it takes him much less time than that; that's a specialized skill, certainly, but if that's what the competition is about...
I was, like, 12 years old when that contest was run. With 3 weeks prep time. Don't any of you remember the time when you were cute, loveable, but had a bit more trouble with multi-digit multiplication? :P j/k

I will add though... that I had participated in local math contests a lot. But the format was very different. Most of the questions in Philipine math contests tended to be problem-solving i.e. "If it takes 3 oranges to make 2 glasses of orange juice, how many oranges will it take to 10 glasses of orange juice?"
Though the fact that you can use scratch paper, but only one sheet, really should be a tip off that they're doing something wonky. If they disallowed scratch paper entirely, that's one thing, but to permit only a strictly limited quantity suggests they're measuring something other than general mathematical ability.
A bit. I noticed the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans didn't even need their scratch papers all that much.

But again, I was like 12. It was a free trip to Hong Kong and I didn't mind getting massacred that much. It was in fact only years later (when I saw how much our local programs had progressed) that I realized just how much that contest was about memorization as opposed to pure math ability.
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Post by Orca »

Here in NZ, there's a fair few students from China. Not exchange students, they pay to come here. The way a bunch of rich chinese are willing to pay to send their kids here to be educated isn't a ringing endorsement of their education system at home, I don't think NZ's education system is that amazing.
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Post by Maj »

Manxome wrote:a test for arithmetic speed and accuracy
I hate these. I have always sucked at speed tests in math. And doing them excessively never made me improve, either.

Also, Zine - You use the sick face a lot. You feelin' OK?

:tongue:
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Post by Zinegata »

Nah. I'm just getting nostalgic. :cry:

(Seriously though... I often confuse the sick smiley with the tongue smiley.)
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